React - Facebook patent - a problem?

@thpo,

This forum started talking about React seriously very recently, and only after MDG signalled a shift. A lot of what is said here is known by the community at large, but is only being discussed here for the first time.

Your argument about Apple changing license etc. is not valid, sorry to say. See my post above about ‘intent’. Apple is a commercial license, with clear intent to make money off your purchase of that license and any product you develop. This is intent / interest. And Apple has a reputation in how they deal with their licenses.

Facebook is in a whole different category. They neither have the interest / intent nor the reputation in keeping this relationship the way it’s going.

Point is, companies need to think about these things in advance.

As for the stars comment about React:

Angular has more stars. Let’s all shift to Angular as we use stars us our metric on what technology to use.

5 Likes

Apollo => GraphQL => fb patent.

There’s no escaping this :confounded:

I think the react-patent-fear-mongering is way over done. If Yahoo, Netflex and AirBnB aren’t concerned— all companies who are in VERY serious competition with Facebook and would have a lot to loose if facebook tried to commander their companies because they use react (which no court would ever uphold anyway)-- then you and your soon-to-fail meteor MVP should be okay (‘you’ directed at general public, not you specifically ramez).

Here is a list of companies who “thought about it in advance” and don’t seem to be losing much sleep over it:

  • ML Frontend - provides dataset management, and SVM fitting/prediction through web-based, and programmatic interfaces.
  • cNow - Joshua Gollaher’s Chat App
  • haoduoshipin - Web Dev Videos by happypeter
  • 1stdibs - Online marketplace for antique furniture, jewelry, fashion, and fine art
  • 51VISA - Online visa application service
  • 6play - Video site for the “M6” french TV channel
  • 6rooms
  • 90min
  • 9flats
  • Accio
  • Asciinema
  • Adazzle
  • AddThis
  • ADN
  • AdRoll - AdRoll Prospecting UI, component library
  • Afterclasse - Educational website for french students
  • Aha!
  • Amaze UI (in Chinese)
  • Angie’s List
  • Airbnb
  • Alipay
  • Ant Design
  • AnyList
  • Appointment Reminder
  • ARTE - Video site for the ARTE french/german TV channel
  • Asana
  • Assembly
  • Atlassian
  • Automattic
  • Avant
  • Backpack
  • BBC
  • BetBetr
  • Beyondpad
  • BigDecisions - Used React+Flux for calculators.
  • BigRentz
  • BilletFix - Simple ticket management system
  • BillGuard
  • Billogram
  • BimmerShops
  • BlankCursor
  • Bloom Perfumery
  • BoomTown
  • Box
  • Brand.ai
  • Branch Metrics Using React + Sprint
  • Brigade
  • BuyerZone BuyerZone’s core Request for Quote application is using ReactJS and Redux
  • C5/mail
  • Cache
  • Canopy
  • Capital One/LevelMoney
  • Casalova
  • Century 21 Asten
  • Change Politics
  • Chegg
  • Chute
  • Cityme.asia
  • Commission Junction
  • Chloi Inc
  • ClearStory Data
  • CloudFlare
  • CMN.com
  • Codecademy
  • Conversocial
  • Cotap
  • Coursera
  • Craftsy
  • Creze
  • Crisis Text Line
  • China Telecom Cloud
  • crontab.guru - Editor for cron schedules
  • CustomInk
  • Dailymatons.com
  • Dailymotion
  • Dapulse
  • Datadog
  • Dataminr
  • Debitoor Studio for Accountants
  • Deezer
  • Directly
  • Distiller
  • Docker
  • Dogeminer
  • Domain
  • Domai.nr
  • Dropbox
  • Dfyoo - 笛风假期
  • EdSurge
  • EF Educational Tours
  • Electric Cloud
  • EMEX
  • ENCODE - Encyclopedia of DNA Elements (source code)
  • EP Newshub - European Parliament real time news aggregator
  • Eten Canarias
  • Evand
  • Everplans Web App
  • EveryDollar
  • Everlane
  • Expedia - Expedia Viewfinder Application
  • EyeEm
  • Facebook
  • Factlink
  • Fancy
  • FaithStreet
  • FeedHop
  • Feedly
  • FINN
  • Fivhter
  • Flexport
  • FlightYogurt
  • Flipboard
  • Flipkart
  • Fontenelle Forest
  • Fortnox
  • fotocasa
  • Frinkiac - Simpsons’ quote search engine
  • Free Code Camp
  • FSB.de - Search UI
  • GetStack
  • GeekHub
  • Gild
  • Glip Mobile
  • GLSL.io
  • Grammarly
  • Guidebook
  • HackerOne
  • Happy Fresh “Online Grocery in 1 Hour - Also available in mobile web soon in 2016!”
  • Happy Recipe - The Best Ever Food Recipes
  • Hashnode
  • Hexlet
  • Hey Dot
  • HipChat
  • Hoodoko
  • Html2CoffeeReact
  • HubSpot
  • HuskyFit
  • i-D Cover Archive 1980 to 2015
  • iBackPacker - A Jobs Site for Backpackers
  • ICX
  • IGN
  • Igniter by Mixpo
  • IMDb
  • Imgur
  • Inkmonk
  • Instacart
  • Instagram
  • Instructure
  • Intuit
  • Invintus
  • InvoiceWriter
  • Iodine
  • issuu - digital publishing platform
  • Itele
  • Jardins de la Poudrière
  • Justickets
  • Kaidee
  • Khan Academy
  • KISSmetrics
  • Klarna
  • Kordio
  • Kupibilet
  • Kongge 空格
  • Laurel & Wolf
  • Layer
  • Lelivrescolaire - Digital scholar books for french students
  • Lithium Technologies
  • LikeYOYO
  • LockedOn
  • Luxemburger Wort
  • Lyft
  • MadMobile
  • Math Notepad
  • Mattermark
  • Madrone - Software & Analytcs
  • Magazon
  • Maizuo
  • Mapbox
  • Map JSON Generator - Draw markers, polylines, shapes and generate JSON
  • Marvel App
  • marvos.bike - A bike mashup site of Strava, Youtube, Flickr & Tumblr API’s
  • MaSalledeSport
  • Mblur
  • Meduza
  • Meituan
  • Maxwell Health
  • Metod - A project management platform designed for everyone
  • Minerva Project
  • MineWhat - Retail platform for merchandising intelligence
  • MixTube
  • mPATH
  • MobiAgent
  • MobileTopup
  • Mogujie.Xiaodian
  • MortgageHippo
  • Motoparking.club (source code)
  • Musixmatch
  • National Hockey League - NHL
  • NativeAmerica.Travel
  • Nbc TV network
  • Neighborly
  • Netflix
  • NFL
  • 宁皓网
  • Noodles
  • Noxcare
  • NoRedInk
  • NPM Click
  • OkCupid - Online dating platform
  • One JiuJitsu and Fitness - Brazillian Jiu Jitsu Gym in Irvine, CA.
  • Onespot - Internal tools
  • OORRAA - B2B-Platform for wholesale trading
  • OpenGov
  • Orobix
  • Otel.com
  • Outschool - Learning activities for kids in California
  • Oyster
  • PaddleGuru
  • Pairyo - Social network of next generation
  • Palo Alto Software
  • Paper by FiftyThree
  • Paperless Post
  • Parabola - Turn everyone in your organization into an analyst.
  • Patience
  • Paypal
  • Peach
  • Percht - Get what you want for the lowest price
  • Perfect Pipeline
  • Periscope
  • PermisDocte - iOS app (french driving license related and build with React Native)
  • Phodphad!
  • PivotalTracker
  • Pixate
  • Planning Center Online
  • Platzi
  • Podio
  • Polymi - Create banners for Facebook Mobile App Installs, Twitter Mobile App Installs and more
  • Posiq
  • Postman
  • PowerReviews
  • Practo HealthFeed
  • Prism Skylabs
  • Procore
  • ProductBoard
  • Producthunt
  • PropertyBook
  • Pudink
  • Quartet Health
  • Quip
  • Quizlet
  • QuizUp
  • QianMi千米网
  • R7 Esportes - Automobilismo
  • Rackspace Cloud Control Panel
  • Rally Software
  • Ralph Lauren
  • Rapid7
  • RDT54
  • React.rocks
  • Recruiterbox
  • Recurly
  • Reddit
  • Redfin
  • RedMart
  • Relax - New generation CMS on top of React and Node.js
  • Remind
  • Revelry
  • RevUP
  • RevoltTV
  • Rockefeller Center
  • Rollbar
  • Room & Board
  • Routes
  • Rotaville Rota Software
  • rtbl
  • Salesforce
  • Salesforce’s Lightning Design System
  • Sauspiel
  • Savvy
  • SEEK Company Reviews
  • SellerCrowd
  • Segment
  • Sentry
  • Shoflo
  • Sift Science
  • Skill
  • SmugMug
  • Smyte
  • Social Tables
  • Sonian
  • Southern Railway
  • Squarespace
  • Spark Pay
  • Stack Overflow Careers
  • Stampsy
  • Storehouse
  • Storenvy
  • Strikingly
  • Stylisted
  • Swipely
  • Synapse Studios
  • Syncano
  • Talk by Teambition
  • Taykey - Web components in web apps, New Self-service platform
  • Taobao淘宝网
  • Teespring
  • Tenon
  • Teradek
  • Tesla Motors - Careers Portal for Tesla Motors, Inc.
  • Tmall天猫
  • The Intercept
  • The Movie Game
  • The New BLK
  • The New York Times
  • The Scribbler
  • The Tie Bar
  • The World If
  • The Zebra
  • Ticketbud
  • Tilt
  • Timerepublik
  • TMdict
  • Tonic
  • Top of the Rock - Buy Tickets
  • Tourplus
  • Trailer Park Boys
  • Traitify Developer Portal
  • trainline
  • Trulia
  • Trunk Club
  • Tune Transcriber - Slow down songs to learn how they are played
  • TvTag
  • Twitter - Fabric
  • Uber - Web App, Support, Clients, 15+ internal apps
  • UF Showroom
  • Undone
  • Uniqlo – US mobile site
  • Uniregistry
  • University of Cincinnati
  • Unverschämt
  • Upclose
  • Vetcove
  • Venmo
  • Verbling
  • Verkkokauppa.com
  • Versal
  • Vida Digital
  • Vimla
  • Visa Checkout
  • VuHaus
  • Wagon
  • WDTio - watchdog timers for monitoring cron jobs and web servers
  • Webpass
  • wehkamp - Largest online retailer in The Netherlands
  • WhatsApp
  • Wired
  • Wirki
  • Wix
  • Wolfram Alpha
  • WordPress.com - source code
  • WorkXpress - Build sophisticated business applications without writing code!
  • Wunderflats - Rent a furnished apartment for 1 month or more!
  • Yahoo
  • YPlan
  • YPY一拍一
  • Zendesk
  • Zugata
  • Zvooq
  • Zignal - Community generated mobile network coverage maps.
  • Ziyue - 子阅
  • NSCC Manager - Manage USNSCC Units

source: https://github.com/facebook/react/wiki/Sites-Using-React

Yes-- it’s good to be aware that react is not MIT… but not because there is any REAL (i.e. probable) risk… only because (1) you don’t want to look like you don’t know about it in front of a client or (2) you can score points at the local MeetUp if you are aware.

Otherwise, it should probably be towards the bottom of your list of concerns if you’re sitting in front of a blank screen waiting to write your first line of code for your startup’s MVP product.

I can’t think of any reason to worry other than if you’re trying to show off to your boss that you are “dotting your i’s and crossing your t’s” by worrying about every potential .01% black-swan instance that could happen… or if you just jumped in a time machine and are now 1 year back in time when we didn’t know there are 100 huge name companies using it already with no concerns.

And, again, I don’t even use react I use blaze. So I have no investment in react succeeding.

2 Likes

Thanks @a.com,

Long list indeed. Thanks for sharing it. We are not a service-provider. So we make our own calls on what technology to use, and licensing issues is among the top of our priorities.

I do agree that if we were selling services, we could throw the ‘React’ and ‘FB’ brand around [Question: how many of these sites were developed via outsourcing?]

Side note: Do you remember Yahoo YUI? I wasn’t into web and hybrid mobile at the time, but my guess the list of users would be longer then the one you posted. Were they wrong to use YUI? Likely not, we are in an evolving world.

Should we use it? Well, if we are up for acquisition / merger, why have an annoying license issue crop up?

Again, this is our call based on thoughtful analysis. Everyone needs their own.

@ramyelkest, not sure. Is Apollo using GraphQL approach or code. The approach itself is a way to communicate data, not sure if in itself it was licensed. Shooting from the hip …

@a.com,

Thanks for your reply. Time to close it.

Note that there is a reason people hire their own lawyers. Everyone is different. So normally you don’t combine legal expertise from third-party you get your own advice.

Good luck.

I think this is a serious problem, but you shouldn’t make too much of it.

  • If you are a company with a considerable size you should consult with lawyers instead of reading a forum.
  • If you are not a company with a considerable size like me, you shouldn’t be worry about that license, I’m sure it’s not causing any problem.
  • If you are not a company with a considerable size and you want to make a big company out of it and you like to solve your hypothetical legal problems in advance … just don’t do that, don’t put your energy and time on that, at this level you should put all your focus on making your project bigger. You can’t make it if you get stuck in these things now!!
9 Likes

Solid advice. Everyone stop panicking. :wink:

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I agree with you @m17

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I’ve added Inferno.js to the above list of React alternatives.

How is that as horrible as people are making it out to be?

It appears to give Facebook the right to infringe on your patents, while keeping your hands tied. If you don’t enforce your patents, you can lose them.

Software patents suck, but that creates a power imbalance. The PATENTS file in all of Facebook’s “open source” projects is poisoning many projects due to dependencies. I don’t believe that it’s unintentional.

Those companies that use React might not be thinking through all of the possibilities.

Drupal, which powers about 1% of the Web, has already eliminated React as a possible JS framework for that reason.

Only a patent lawyer or lawsuit would settle what it really means, but here is the relevant part:

The license granted hereunder will terminate, automatically and without notice,
if you (or any of your subsidiaries, corporate affiliates or agents) initiate
directly or indirectly, or take a direct financial interest in, any Patent
Assertion: (i) against Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or corporate
affiliates, (ii) against any party if such Patent Assertion arises in whole or
in part from any software, technology, product or service of Facebook or any of
its subsidiaries or corporate affiliates, or (iii) against any party relating
to the Software.

If you like React, put pressure on Facebook to remove the PATENTS files. Then everyone can use those tools without any worry about what it might mean.

1 Like

Hmm… after giving it more thought, that may be true. If you patent something in your web app first, and then Facebook tries to patent it or use your patented technology, by pursuing a patent assertion against them, you lose your license to use React. As far as I understand the legalese, at least.

Still, for someone who’s not going to patent anything in their web app, this is a non-issue.

In this thread, someone claims that if you initiate a patent assertion, your license simply reverts to a BSD license. I don’t know if there’s any truth to that though, as I don’t know enough about it.

EDIT: Hold on. The grant of patent rights has nothing to do with the software license, which is BSD. They can’t stop you from using React, as far as I understand it. I’m still going through it though (again).

This is why the real effect of that PATENTS file probably is going to be unknown until lawyers go battle over it.

someone claims that if you initiate a patent assertion, your license simply reverts to a BSD license.

If the PATENTS files can be ignored, why are they there? Just remove them.

for someone who’s not going to patent anything in their web app, this is a non-issue.

One never knows. “The Facebook” wasn’t originally going to be what it is now.

If this is such a concern, why are REAL companies with REAL patents that hold REAL value using react?

If you are a startup, or dev shop (or anyone, really) this shouldn’t be a concern. Uber, Netflix, and many other companies who are really the only entities that should even consider worrying about this problem, are not worrying about this problem.

React Patent Discussion === Mental Mastur&&%#

The chances are near zero that you have a perfect storm of (a) use react, (b) have software patents that end up being worth something, and © facebook tries to come after you. The chances you (a) use react, (b)have software patents that end up being worth something to facebook, and © facebook tries to come after you-- AND (d) you end up in a situation where you can’t just switch out your view layer are actually zero.

This is such a absurd thing to worry about, it’s beyond a black swan event. Anyone who finds themselves in this (basically, imaginary) situation will also be in a situation to switch out their view layer. Again, we’re so far into hypothetical imaginary la-la land that we’re on par with physics thought experiments.

Sitting in your computer chair today and deciding not to use react on your next project because of this is equivalent to a home builder deciding not to enter the home building business because there might be a hurricane 5 years from now that occurs on the exact day they are putting up a beam of wood with a defect in the exact spot that will get knocked down by the exact blow of the wind… you’re getting way ahead of yourself and wasting valuable brain power that could be used for laying code.

Who Should Worry?

If you’re working on ML/AI/Big Data (actually working on it, not utilizing a Watson API), and that ML/AI/BD work is DIRECTLY COMPETING with Facebook’s CORE STRATEGY AND DIRECTION then you may possibly want to ask this question…so we’re talking maybe 5 people on planet earth (who are located at MIT or Stanford) who should be thinking about thinking about maybe worrying about this… and even then I doubt Facebook will be able to come after your AI/ML patents because you used their view layer. It is just is not going to happen…

**

TLDR:

  • Software patents are essentially useless
  • Software patents are DEFINITELY useless if you don’t have an oracle-size war chest for litigation.
  • Facebook is not going to come after your social network for cats CRUD app.
  • You should probably be laying code right now
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Are they really, though? Let’s say I launch a SaaS that has something really unique in its design or function, that no one has done before. It would be useless for me to patent that? Why?

Because
(1) it is unlikely you will get the patent as it is hard to patent software (what are the chances your “design” or “function” are truly unique enough for a patent?

(2) it will be prohibitively expensive to bring the infringer to court for 99% of startups or small companies

(3) it is near impossible to win the case, and many cases are being lost (and confounding the case law that makes future cases even less hopeful)

(4) if the person infringing on your patent is Facebook and you’re not Google/Apple, you can basically forget ever actually winning that case. You’ll go bankrupt and best-case-scenario they make a netflix movie about you in 50 years that makes you look like a cool tech matyr, but in the mean time you’re wife will leave you, and you’ll die a poor crazy man in a cabin in northern Minnesota.

TLDR:
Software patents are just not as strong as patents that cover physical hardware, etc… maybe it if it software (and hardware) that powers a touch screen hologram. But the chances your SaaS CRUD app is unique enough to be patented are slim… and if you get a patent, the chances you can defend it successfully are near zero.

Most of the big companies with software patents are doing it just because. When you’re apple/oracle/google, then yeah you may as well spend .005% of the budget on patenting some stuff. For the rest of us, we should focus on getting customers for our non-patented SaaS CRUD app or building a team for an acquihire.

Most successful startups don’t get there because they have a software patent… as most are just CRUD apps built on top of open source stuff. It’s probably hard to convince a judge your clever import/export structure built on node is patentable, or that you deserve to sue facebook because they used the same box-shadow on their singup button

1 Like

Because they haven’t thought through all of the possibilities.

If you are a startup, or dev shop (or anyone, really) this shouldn’t be a concern.

It isn’t just about you – it’s about the entire Free software ecosystem. If one is building tools for other companies to use, then it’s wise to consider that they may have different needs.

Software patents are essentially useless

Software patents suck and should be abolished, but unfortunately, they exist.

(a) use react, (b) have software patents that end up being worth something, and (c) facebook tries to come after you. The chances you (a) use react, (b)have software patents that end up being worth something to facebook, and (c) facebook tries to come after you-- AND (d) you end up in a situation where you can’t just switch out your view layer are actually zero.

Yes, d) is viable, if you have the resources to do that. Tough luck if your entire stack has FB dependencies though – e.g., Clojurescript, Immutable, Hack, Facebook’s own GraphQL library, nested npm dependencies.

The reason that we have all these amazing development tools today is because the last generations were vigilant.

Facebook is not going to come after your social network for cats CRUD app.

You are only thinking about your own situation and people like yourself. There are other things to consider, like: these things do matter to some companies and projects, possibly hindering adoption of software that contain these PATENTS files. Drupal is the biggest example so far.

Also, it creates an imbalance in the tech industry. Software patents are not just offensive tools, but are often used defensively.

Hypothetical example:

  • Your company starts with no patents.
  • Without warning, it becomes wildly successful, like a Yo or Snapchat.
  • Suddenly you are a big player.
  • You begin acquiring patents for defensive reasons.
  • Facebook decides that your model is pretty good and copies your patented features.
  • Your whole stack is riddled with Facebook’s PATENTS files: dependencies of dependencies of dependencies in NPM, etc. You have a choice to do an entire rewrite, but don’t have the resources, so you wait.
  • You get into a patent war with some other company that is not Facebook.
  • Because you didn’t enforce your patent claim against Facebook, it is invalidated.
  • Facebook never even came after you, but you are now more open to attack by the third company’s lawsuits.

Yes, it’s unlikely, but this is entirely against the principles of Free software, and it isn’t what should be passed down to the next generation of developers.

The main point is that the effect of the PATENTS file is unknown, and that it creates uncertainty about what the licences mean. If the Free software community doesn’t do something about these PATENTS files, it may prompt other companies to see how much further they can push the boundaries. There are some situations where it might be a problem – not necessarily for you and your CRUD app, but for the Free software community in general.

The best solution would be to get Facebook to remove the PATENTS files and then they will be normal BSD software without any unknowns.

1 Like
  1. To say Netflix, Uber and others haven’t thought through all the possibilities of using react is absurd. These places house some of the top minds in the world.

  2. This thread is about the risk of using react for individuals/dev shops/startups-- not about the philosophical idea that all software should be 100% free (which is arguably a great thing for software users and companies, and bad for developers if it keeps up at the current pace in the next 10-15 years developers will be feeling the squeeze of free software on their wages and job opportunities… good for society though I suppose).

  3. To go with the snap chat example. They had no patents at all, and facebook did find their model pretty good, and we all know what happened next… and it wasn’t because they held a chat app patent.

  4. The point about having “viable resources” to re-write your app is moot— the chances this ever occurs is non-existent. Zero. Not going to happen other than in thought experiments held here and on reddit.

  5. It is a valid point that if you are developing software on behalf of another entity who has patents, you should consult somebody about it. Otherwise you’re putting your client at risk-- I can see the validity in that argument you’re making.

I don’t agree there. I think that this kind of PATENTS file is ambiguous and untested. It adds something to the BSD license, and there is no way to know exactly what it means until it’s tested.

I’d argue that Facebook is a smarter company than most and that it works in very insidious ways.

This thread is about the risk of using react for individuals/dev shops/startups

I think that it’s about React’s PATENTS files. Those of us who build things with Free software are not just observers. Our actions are the system.

To go with the snap chat example.

The specific company doesn’t matter. The point is that a small app might turn into something bigger.

the chances this ever occurs is non-existent. Zero.

It’s really impossible to say what could happen – only that this PATENTS file makes things uncertain.

I also think that there is a very simple solution that would make everyone happy. :slight_smile:

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Looks like it’s time to resurrect this thread - see this lawyers review of the react license. TL;DR - His take: react is not open source software.

Oh, and of course Hacker News has gone ballistic over this