The drive towards MeteorJS Foundation!

Back just as @fredmaiaarantes was announced to be the new CEO of Meteor @alimgafar and others were working on a proposal to radically change how MeteorJS is governed. Given that those two events came together at an unfortunate time it was decided to keep things on the need to know basis until the time is right to start moving forward. That time is now!
As I’m posting this I’m announcing the main point at my Open Source Summit Japan talk about MeteorJS. But first let’s put into public the letter that started it all:

To summarize here is what is going on:

The undersigned (you can request the addition of your signature there as well), would like to move towards establishing MeteorJS Foundation that would:

  • Complement Meteor Software in supporting development of MeteorJS core itself
  • Formalize Impact as a community-driven annual event with Meteor Software having the option for premier sponsorship and keynote
  • Provide incentives to contributors to encourage them and others to participate more and decrease churn
  • Support community meetups, evangelism, marketing, and other community activities to maintain enthusiasm
  • Signal that MeteorJS is a credible OSS project (and not one compromised by any single commercial interest)

It will be a long way to get there, but I’m making connections at OSS Japan and hope to get some insights from the folks at Linux Foundation. We have many options and many things to work on, so consider this as a formal invitation to join in the effort, be it adding your signature, offering help or joining a work group to support MeteorJS’s development.

Do note that establishing a foundation will take time and money. We want to do this right, so we will take our time and we need your support and help! Please get in touch!

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Thanks for sharing, @storyteller.

As the proponent of the Meteor Foundation, can you share the overarching Vision/Mission of the proposed organization?

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It sounds like a great idea. Usually these kinds of companies start as open source foundations and go commercial, interesting to see it go in reverse!

Was curious to hear how the long-term future would be pitched in the wild, compared to “the letter” … a lot falls apart right here, but mostly between friends and colleagues. Code commits slow and then stop. Or if they continue, they are uninspired, trivial, sustaining; evolution and innovation end. The spirit of it is gone.

Was relieved not to hear even a speck of that, only historical context and eagerness to move forward. Loved the apparent flexibility with focus on prize; no white-knuckled devotion to “letter” versus “foundation” which is placeholder idea rather than an opinion of a hill-to-die-on. I also heard “lean” thinking in there, wanting wise agility to win and carry forward another decade+ rather than name-on-door or not-invented-here syndrome.

All the other */OSS entities are wrapped up in huge issues too so it is not wise to continue “what works” because that too is a Santa Claus and mostly lore+stamina. I feel like it is most realistic to even expect gravity might not take my wallet to the floor if I drop it, one day; just think about that word “wallet” itself now, as case-in-point. Everything stops working at some point. Understanding why is the key, and then not chasing but leading. It is not clique to say we already contain the future in our own dreams, and we have reality in our hands if we go beyond rubberduckies, hobbyists, professionals, and pool together our fates to some real extent. Based on a sound but dynamic foundation of sanity. I can give a lot of landmarks here for reference, but we already have many household names, all over the world. Meteor is on the brink of that kind of significance if we cultivate that spark.

I imagine there is a lot of intellectual and strategic power here to deal with that type of landscape, not just code monkeys or wall followers. We cannot get wrapped up in what the world thinks by default, or gets all excited about and starts yelling. If we had, none of this would be happening. People left the world behind and became programmers in the first eras, it was not normal. Totally abnormal then. Now? Welcome to Earth, powered by programmers… destroyed by one bad idea, but sponsored by the wildest dreams of every prior generation, while we now act as the future reaching back.

We do not want to chase the target. Always account for wind when shooting an arrow. Meteor itself is really a point in evolution, perhaps an edge. It feels like being on the seam between “awesome” and “light fantastic” … right there where the whole plot gets lost. I feel a lot of organic roots still alive here, but without that “self-limiting” aspect tending toward overly safe, soft, slow, weak, etc.

The fact Tiny went public also resets the strategic landscape to totally different physics. Am very glad to be arriving at this particular point. And glad to have had not quite a year to just dream about it and imagine surviving migrating over, which is a huge investment, even an existential-threat level of faith.

In growing fruit trees sometimes you have a very special set of genetics to do, but it cannot survive certain environmental factors. In that case you take a relative from earlier in the history of that “general fruit” and then graft the designer genetics onto the “wild roots” … I feel like Meteor is “wild roots” and what was DONE in the last decade has itself become something which stands next to or above the original code. And being able to win again and make a tradition rather than a codebase only, having a community that can see and spark eras… that is beyond priceless and cannot be manipulated into place. Being able to outdo yourself, with the will to adapt and evolve and let the paradigm shift, then do it all over again… that is something quested after by the best to have lived, not just since 1970. Meteor stands to level the playing field in that context, I believe, again, but much more deeply this time. And some fresh wind in the sail will go very far, like putting in subs when the first string is very tired, then the first string comes back and now we have 2+ A-teams.

There is a lot to say here but I feel like it is a >1 year conversation sparking, and not for the purpose of talk only, but of establishing governance among the parties already involved, especially independents and self-owned corporate entities. We can at any time change the landscape itself with a bit of help from our friends, or even go solo-unicorn if really driven. I have to clap at the diplomacy and the actual “ambassador” role being played there, pending seeing the talk itself. Even eager to find a way to put my shoulder into it and am thinking through specifics on alternatives and options to consider.

:clap: @storyteller … the proof is in the pudding and no letter can walk the walk. Being a real person and having depth is what allows people to connect at all, then they get into the details because they care >0% … And being an outstanding community involves flexibility+drive+chill… What a relief to not see a trainwreck in step 0. I feel like there was a huge fatal fall avoided right there, at the most vulnerable time… ( before birth )

And now for the next world.


P.S. Not a huge fan of the name, now. Branding and colors “look sexy” but its substantial concept “space rock hitting planet” as distinguished from asteroid ( “space rock not hitting planet, orbiting; somewhat debris” ) … are outdated now. Assuming it was originally relevant and not just “cool sounding” … it has been landed for >10 years. That previously stellar rock would be cooled off now, and easily mistaken for a boulder native to the planet ( with a crater that gives it away a bit, but soon all the overgrowth will have taken up that evidence too ) … notice how the metaphor holds on branding, but not in our favor right now, though eerily :100: :dart:

I start from the brand pathos now and reason as to what we are even doing. So we landed. NICE! Now what? What are we doing? Galaxy strains the metaphor already dead a while ago, and does not connect. Meteor and Galaxy have no “actual” connection, at least not more than Hand and Galaxy … somewhat celestial? Somehow massive? Otherworldly? We cannot carry forward a name with no relationship to what it is, at least not for long. And, killing a name is a way to signal real change, if it is more than changing a text field only … if it is true art. I feel like all the elements needed to leap are here, and probably reading this thread.

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Had a talk with @alimgafar and @jkuester on this topic and also provided more historical information:

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Have not watched this, and eager to see things in writing, since the letter is very weak compared to the message itself. Feels like the air is leaving the balloon faster than it is added still.

  1. What are the goals ( and @rjdavid question :dart: ) vision?
  2. How is this better than the way it is now?
  3. Why this leadership team?
  4. Why not make Meteor Software more successful and write a regular contract?
  5. Why not directly make an offer to Tiny with something motivating in the business world?

I could keep going but it seems like there is this “because real life is hard we need to be special” and that is different from the F/OSS way. The F/OSS way talking about the word Free meant primarily free as in speech, not free as in beer. The free as in beer portion matters if the free as in speech portion is going on, and I see no desire to do that in the foundation conversation yet, in writing, with documents that matter more than a letter.

MIT licensing tells me Meteor Software still has actual guts and I do not feel a need to smack them on the hand or take control just because of the rodeo of the past I was not a part of. Why care today?

Right now it feels like there are three currents in the community: People doing actual work and getting no press, other than other people doing actual work bring it up so we know, or the same person doing more work to tell us. People feeling extreme v3 pain ( I waited to implement versus migrate v2 code ) … and now an unclear message about a foundation. I put it like this as a devil’s advocate, since I am asking myself a lot: What can be LTS about v3 and do I prefer it be maintained by Meteor Software or influenced by Tiny … or not? I do not see a “HELL YEAH!” here I am extremely interested in seeing that, and growing in support.

Since my last message, I got very deep into a design pattern shift to fit the actual situation real life requires in this era. It has that feeling of Event Horizon where in order to travel from one end of the universe to another by allegedly bending space-time ( holding back comments on physics and nature of reality ) they actually ended up taking a short-cut through “hell” and one cannot miss that feeling.

I love F/OSS. I was a full-time F/OSS developer for many. many years. And I want to love Meteor … but where is this going? Someone does the chores on schedule? So that people do not take away what is already MIT licensed and we could just improve already without needing to be compensated because we make a living with it already? I cannot see the logic yet. I want to see the logic and as I said, I am extremely glad there is not fixation with a particular way to get there… but where is “there” and is “there” mostly about sponsorship?

What is the main thing?

This not being my first rodeo, I would flesh-out "why in writing" a bit more:

  • Thought is hard work
  • Improvising is not design
  • Meteor itself has that flaw

If I were to request one thing, it would be sanity. If we have that, we can do everything else. If we surrender some sanity to get something… now we are insane, or unsane. Writing helps protect that, or it would, if people did it. I cite Black's Law Dictionary for example, in our dependent worlds: As crazy as the legal world is, and therefore the financial world and visa versa, the dictionary work is a lot of the real innovation as well as a history lesson. It is written by people who really write. The digital world is not special and allowed to be lazy. We are the world holding up the other worlds so their maximum is our minimum.

Where is the sane, adult, professional, well-reasoned, original, perhaps even imaginative, inspired, intuitive, and I dare say necessary version of this in writing? Since there has been >10 years for that document it seems weird to not have “vision” answered in the first document, and for all progress to be talking-head in format.

Right?

Going to put this on solid ground a bit more:

  • Who in leadership has legally defended their strategy and formations?
  • Who in leadership has negotiated with serious contenders on their own terms? ( That is reality, now. )
  • What is the key or series of if/then/else arguments to make it work for everyone better than now?

From what I know of Meteor right now it does serious work in the wild. If that level of quality and performance is not done in the planning and execution ( better than Meteor Software already, and better than Tiny because they are a partner, which means they bring more than just money and deserve more than control; i.e. advice, positioning, opportunities, collaboration in the field, IPO notwithstanding ) we ought not presume “other people did cool things and it was rad!” is going to do more than be competition for attention and passions of the same people who might be doing something other than Meteor at all, since hopefully they do a lot of thought here already, and presumably do not also get a return more than code.

We are not in an era of hopes and dreams. That is awesome. Our dreams became reality already and now we are all up in that. Messier, but more control. It requires seriousness I have not seen yet. And whereas reading a long forum post or an email might take a few extra minutes or maximum an hour, taking the wrong course wastes years/life and a lot more than “just time” … so while I have no deep loyalties yet other than to ninjas who design and write and maintain code, and I can afford to be different, I shift to: Show me serious.

What is necessary? Why this? What is the main thing? How is this besting not only “our” own prior best, but like the code itself ( which all ought speak for, but ought to speak for itself also ) … what is best in the world here? Like I said it comes down to the legal and financial portion. But we are their platform. Where is that speaker?

Being invited to care for >10 years is a big ask.

Toward “writing” and distancing from weaker positions in rhetoric, I put out a third lane:

There is not just for-profit, and non-profit only. And there is not necessarily need for governance, but integrity, based on the real value brought, and in way more forms than code, or chores getting done. There are many established models for this but I did not go into solutions yet, I worked to swim away from */OSS pitfalls.

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Totally agreed @digisarathi and VERY excited about this, alongside that:

It hurts to make changes. But unless our confidence is violated, we invest good faith and work hard. I see a LEAN and MEAN squad shaping up. I believe that will be an all new level of sharp. Decentralizing command is HARD. Then, with us in the world, not all shaky-legged, knowing “here be ninjas” back at home, and not fretting over whether it is all going to fizzle out… practical yet passionate vision like yours help a lot to build up the spirit of the community, versus be uninspired and deadpan from fatigue and whatever else. Grasp of the needs and wants out there are very well framed there by you, which is a source of drive, especially:

I am in the Northwest of the planet but feel the same and think the same every day for my corner of the world. That is the down-to-earth truth I try to keep in focus. Leaving “third world” happens for programmers too. I feel vertigo thinking about the rest of Open Source. Or like looking at a snotty toddler eating boogers. We can fast forward at least to food fights if not sky diving into a stadium by comparison to diapers.

I would be very honored to think about the best Reference Implementation with you to really attract the main crowd by sheer awesome, then let them discover the geek and nerd aspects after the WOW portion. The AWE of what it means to have the freedom Meteor demands. I am on the way there, and feeling loyalty build. I am not totally sold yet but I want to be. By mid-Winter I will start to show a “shock and awe” example, which solves the issue you mentioned especially. But I do not presume to know the Open Source distributed application design space alone, or just from a Northwest perspective. THEN call in the crowds directly. Attention is spread out too far. There must be a real spectacle and tour de force, not just “great people” or “cool things” … what is the best example of this ecosystem? Is it better than X/discord/etc… and easy to clone? Great question since technically we can each make one of those, engineering-wise, here.

Anyway, very inspired to see your tangible handle on what really matters, and I :clap: and :100: since :dart:

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That is approaching the most backward evolutionary-step screenshot I have seen. Great work removing anything worth it so that when we look back we can all say “I MASTERED BORING”

Not a fan of centrality, and not here to make you like me. The nice thing about MIT licenses is you can feel all the love in the world for a community you leave behind.

Right now I am checking for “worth caring” and I am seeing the stock drop more than it raises. Feel free to encourage higher cognitive function natively and do actual art as a way of life.

I would never say that. Go shame someone else for being alive, if that is the best follow-up. Skip to basic. Code being a form of Poetry must be lost on you?

Code is the test, and all this is secondary communication compared to performance in code. If we were on a contract and knew each other, obviously there would be a common denominator form… right here is the edge of */OSS. It is not cultured to make others fit your spec. Deal with it and ignore unless relevant, or press mute

@digisarathi

Meteor & Galaxy is great but the millions of engineering students in India have no idea it even exists

And that’s the way we like it !

Please do NOT tell those millions to introduce themselves at Meteor Forums.

Thanks!

okay, sir. I assure you I cannot or wasn’t aiming to that on my own. Cheers!

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Having more people here from places like India and Brazil and hearing their input is super important. If we want to make any Meteor succeed we at least need to unite in one place or at least have the leaders of different communities communicate between each other so that they can share awesome advances and best practices. Not fond of the silos that are created geographically/language wise. The Internet has given us an easy way to overcome this and this forum is the easy way to do this for Meteor.
Though there are things that we can consider to help in this process. I have been long advocating for translation of the documentation and guide. There are parts that won’t be easy, but I think we can figure something out (at the very least we could start using Crowdin to open the effort to anyone), I’ll see if I can get some time to establish something (though involvement form Meteor Software on this will be needed to hook things up).
For the forums we might want to consider language specific categories or something else to make it easier to discuss in other languages. The superpower here is that if there is needed a feedback from a user in another language you can still tag them and then we have translators which would allow us to communicate at least in some capacity if the other party does not speak English. I would also like to see what the other communities are doing. For example recently I have noticed that Meteor Software was at some conference. If I had known this in advance I could have mentioned that on our shows and we could have other interactions about it as well, but it has been in its own silo. Another side effect is that it then shrinks the visible community and makes people think that this is it, which has lead to doomerism in the past.

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I am curious, is it possible to code without knowing (some) English? What if you get 1000 people of the same country in the forums and in 1-2 years everything is in … Korean?!

I noticed some posts in X (about Meteor) from the Meteor CEO and Gabs, in Portuguese and I am not sure why or what is the target here.
Similarly, if I ask something in English and get a reply in Cyrillic I don’t feel the conversation is … moving nor I’d love to translate my messages.
I don’t know … I kind of have mixed feelings about multi-language communication and I will have to continue to disregard Meteor’s communication in other languages than English.

Curious what do others think about it (abut language categories).

In the case you sent I understand being in portuguese because it’s an announcement for a live video in portuguese. Besides that I believe everything should be in english

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Agreed with @paulishca but, in the spirit of your message, which is not about English @storyteller:

I think the language topic is really the topic “what is the world” and also “how do we work together” best?

And I almost did not get involved with Meteor because of Portuguese. I thought it was a bad sign that the library was going to be more arbitrary conceptually, perhaps even limited or skewed, in the way design was being thought. I have seen that many times and fight that myself since I work outside English for most concepts and then port them over to English, which is extremely difficult and often disfigures the idea.

This does not mean I am pro English, only that I understand why English is the way English is, and it is the most appropriate to Programming. A few other languages might work, but those hit social limiters, on the whole. English is a prerequisite technology of Open Source, at the very bottom. At least for the last 50 years and the next 20, if not next 100. Getting to English is a lot of the goal of the melting pot engineers also, so there is a gale force wind in that direction.

English is a foundational language with wide usage in Open Source because it coincides with Programming; it is the replacement legal language, following after Latin. It is not intended to be subtle like other languages, which is why so much effort goes into being subtle or artful, it is intended to unite speakers into one mind.

But I do not think this is necessarily the best idea, nor done well in history ( usually by direct force or by indirect force of propaganda ) … and this is coming from an individual with recent lineage in every major continental body except South America ( and Antarctica ) directly. The closest I came to South America was living in Central America, so I got only a vague feeling. But all of the Americas are one whole, which most people do not know or see still true. Working with colleagues in South America there is the feeling “oh, more Americans” and then mainly nuance differences, not existential ones as with going across an actual world boundary.

Each cultural segment has their own language regardless of what they speak. Outreach will be microcultural for it to succeed, and that is an extremely long conversation. And squads do need to come up. What I agree with from @xet7 is that this forum ( right now, does not need to remain so ) is essentially a squad-oriented, not even culturally foundational, forum. It is mostly a support forum, which not only requires high levels of English, but also high levels of Experience, within reason, and to have a ton of novice or even intermediate here would dilute that squad of higher experience. It is a club-house right now, speaking as a still kinda outsider, but seeing what is what. Looking at forums geared toward novices and intermediates it is an intellectual dumpster fire and that level of fresh hell every day I would never want in such a high-complexity ecosystem

Suffice to say, I would not split into Languages any more than we ought to cater to every single experience level, teach programming, etc. I suggested mentorship because that is the middle-way: If someone wanted to invest 3-5 years and really get deep into investment into the ecosystem of code, documentation, community support, etc… that is a special category, same with founders - we are the floor every ecosystem stands on.

I would vote no on many languages, and vote yes on many languages of documentation perhaps but not contribute toward that, because I think it is thinking about the world in a way that is not the way the world is. There is an undercurrent pushing toward one world, but we are not - nor ever wish we were - one world. We are many worlds, working together, collaborating in compensation, ideally in balance, but not as a melting pot.

That seems good to work out right away in a “foundation” context but the more I think about this, the more I think there needs to be a scaffolding organization which preserves and helps develop many related communities which themselves work together, and across modalities, not just in the same programming language, etc… something others here would still understand, something relevant… I have some examples in mind. A lot of communities less important than Meteor have a lot of the same problems. It would be more DRY to solve the root issues which cause various EOL situations for */OSS, then implement it here, as well as other neighboring communities. I am personally part of dozens of key technology communities, management cooperatives, etc… cannot ever focus on just one, and that would be better if it were not a competition for the same attention. Also without ability to go deep and concentrate, all these segments defeat each other, taking the limited resource of ego, since ego depletion is serious. Right now I think */OSS is pretty much ruined, which is good news because everyone thinks it is in its best era. Lots of room to evolve from ruined to awesome.

Understanding the way the world really is, not taking onboard the idea spread by the vaguely incumbent layers wishing uniformity of service in the lower layers, being willing to embrace the diversity in the world by not subjecting everyone to the culture they are not from, while unifying them with purposes they share which is how decentrality works… Working in other spoken languages in the past was never in competition with English, it was always studying something English is too brutal to render, such as spiritual, psychological, emotional, intellectuality itself versus intellectual pursues, physical life, and certainly gender and sexuality. English is where it is too hard to talk about those actually valuable things, so instead we get things done and go big.

@paulishca

I am curious, is it possible to code without knowing (some) English? What if you get 1000 people of the same country in the forums and in 1-2 years everything is in … Korean?!

I do answer to questions that can be any language. I use Google Translate to translate question to English or Finnish so that I can understand. Then I write my reply, translate it to the same language as in question, and send reply.

For videos, I use YouTube automatic translations to translate from any language to English or Finnish.

For translations for Meteor-based software, I use https://transifex.com , where anyone can join to translate to their language, verifying that it uses correct words for that language.

There are some non-English programming languages, but I don’t know is any of those used to make some web framework.