@ everyone, lets chill for a second please. This has spilled over from constructive disagreement into frustration and aggression.
@manthony, you don’t need to reply to everyone. Most of your posts have been very constructive, but your frustration in later posts seems to have triggered a frustrated response from others.
The thing is, that others opinions and experiences aren’t an attack on yours.
Their experience with scaling doesn’t invalidate your experience with core functionality and external perceptions.
Unfortunately, perceptions of Meteor is a long standing sore spot for community evangelists, so you got the regular defenses of Meteor in response (ie. be careful with pub/sub, use extra packages, etc).
You don’t need to respond to every one of these, your first response was adequate in explaining that this is the objections you face when considering Meteor with your team. It’s clear in the remaining ones that you are getting further agitated that folks are getting stuck on defending the point. Chill, you don’t need to keep replying.
Lets not make assumptions about each other, and keep it civil. I don’t want to have to delete or edit posts. I’ve done a little of both to clean up instead of responding to the flags. I’m not handing out any silences or suspensions, since this looks like it was miscommunication and misreading instead of malice.
We all know that Meteor has a rough reputation, some deserved and some not. I think some of the improvements suggested have a lot of merit, but we are still going to have that reputation to work on as well.
As a side note, I’ve been interviewing for a new job and so I’ve gotten a few of these:
Which is fun trying to convince others that my skills are still relevant in 2020
Thanks @coagmano, much needed
I really hope I’m not throwing gasoline on the fire here.
I actually think @manthony’s posts, albeit pretty direct, were pretty constructive. He was not insulting anyone, just pointing out (perceived) flaws as is the topic of this post. If you are insulted by this, you should maybe read some of the stoic works. As Epictetus already observed, it’s impossible to insult a rock
This is a good point in my opinion. The discussion is not (and has never been) “does Meteor scale”, but rather: what can we do to improve this perception. Official guides + packages for the known solutions is a very constructive suggestion.
Goodness man. You should be on Reddt so I could give you some Gold. Thats EXACTLY The point I made in my very first post in this thread. Its been twisted mercilessly ever since. unofficial packages need to be brought into official status to help convince people they can trust meteor to scale. You’ve single handedly restored my faith in this forum (well almost. I see the merry band is still at it).
@manthony, I for one apologize if any of my comments aggravated you, I get your point about scaling best practices and the DB coupling, it has been echoed many times in the form, and I really don’t want this thread to turn personal.
This is very good feedback.
I’d suggest we turn this thread into something constructive. I’ve always proposed to create a scaling section within the Meteor Guide to encapsulate the best practices.
We can start a thread to collect some of the best practices , and then put them in a doc which might help in clearing some of the FUD around scaling.
However, at risk of repeating myself, the scaling issues you alluded you are solvable, and no these are not hacks but best practices to be followed to address the challenges of scaling any system. The alternative you proposed (nestjs) doesn’t make any comparable offering, and in my perspective, offer very little to plain express/webpack or Meteor. The issue with Meteor real-time is that it is very easy to screw it up, and run into performance issues, that is why I think it should have been opt-in by design and not the default.
@manthony would you mind sharing the link of your dev shop so we can get a better idea on your perspective on the kind of services/app development your shop is creating?
I agree with you that the community can do more to address the FUD around scaling.
Some of the offending messages have been deleted, others have been edited, since the original discussion. Unless you were following it closely for the past 12 hours, you might have missed parts of it.
The constructive parts of it have been obvious.
But, because of misunderstandings, or maybe it was just the late hour in the specific timezone, @manthony’s posts were becoming more and more in a way that can easily be viewed as patronising and negative. And it all snowballed from members of the forum defending others, not from a defensive of Meteor.
Saying this so it is not assumed that it was just a case of evangelism gone awry.
Edit: meant timezones
Over the last 5 years Meteor has been scrutinized till death, do you really think this the first time we hear this? I lost count how many threads I responded to personally, within the Meteor forums! Just grab popcorn and click on my profile history. Why? Because they negate my own hands-on positive experience with the tech and I believe it’s great tech for entrepreneurs, I have nothing to sell here, if it doesn’t work for you by all means use something else, it comes with MongoDB and it needs knowledge to scale, you don’t like that, don’t use it, use Firebase or something else, but don’t create FUD for others who know what they are doing. The tech is far from perfect and has many shortcomings, which has been well documented, it has been here for 8 years! but it has also alot to offer when used correctly. There goes no day in these forums without someone complaining about something and that’s fine. My issue personally is when things start to go in circles, and the discussions stop being reasonable or productive.
Why not Meteor in 2020? My personal reason, too much FUD in the forums, I like the Meteor community, I learned alot here, and there alot of smart and very experienced folks here, they are busier than me and don’t comment often and it is always a delight to see their posts. But I don’t want to come to this forum and hear the same FUD messages over and over again. I want to learn about best practices, new tech, new announcement, packages, and share experiences. I find the Meteor forum very moderators accomodating, I would like to see the same scrutiny applied to other JS frameworks and there is plenty to scrutinize out there.
This is my favorite part of the thread so far! It was unexpected, thanks for sharing. I’m a big Epictetus fan as well.
To @alawi @hypo @stolinski
The Meteor MySQL package has been around since 2015 and fully supports pub/sub and DDP using the MySQL binary log as the event source.
The most recent update was version 1.2.12 released on April 30th 2020 (21 days ago).
Over these years, I have personally known 6 Australian businesses who have relied on this package in their Meteor production apps, 5 of them not even running MongoDB.
Scalability has been at the heart of its implementation and I have even pushed for Meteor’s Mongo package and redis-oplog to be enhanced by incorporating functionality present in the MySQL package.
The Meteor MySQL package has been posted about many times in this forum and it’s frustrating to have to deal with the chronic amnesia I have seen in this thread.
I am aware of it and share and understand your frustration, I have shared this great package several times myself.
But as you can see, people will complain it’s not official and not in the guide, perhaps we can add it to the guide and put it part of the community packages?
I really think we should have SQL, PWA and Scaling/Performance, Community Packages sections in the Meteor guide, also a section to compare it objectively with other frameworks, so whenever those threads popup we just share a link and save ourselves the headache and time of repeating ourselves.
Yeah, I was going to respond, but it’s not worth it in this case. There are iron clad assumptions being made that you can’t argue against, and why would you, it wouldn’t be fruitful. Many of us around here work on lots of different platforms, with varying forms of devops, and still like and prefer Meteor. There are reasons for that, but this particular person is not interested, and should probably just use something they are more preferential to.
We should just get it into the Meteor Guide. Let me know if you want me to do it or anything else.
Is there a “Meteor misconceptions” post somewhere, authoritatively written?
https://www.meteor.com/meteor-faq turned up
when Googling for those terms, and does answer the DB question, but it could be made more convincing by mentioning what @vlasky said, and there should also be an entry about PWAs .
oh it was most definitely that. As Rijk has so honestly pointed out there never was a charge about Meteor not scaling. NEVER. That WAS made up by evangelism gone awry. You can delete all the response you want after mullojo’s pretty savage attack on me personally as some deviant “lurker” allowing you pretend it was all my fault but if you don’t learn as a community you are going to tick off a lot of others than the Vue developers you ticked off last night. I don’t see how given the market position of Meteor thats constructive but have fun with it here, You don’t have control of the narrative elsewhere where it counts.
nope never ever made any proposal of Nestjs as an alternative to Meteor. Doing so unsolicited on Meteor forum would have been disrespectful. Thats another charge completely made up due to evangelism gone awry. You asked me an aside about what my go to (the one I use most often or fall back to) node framework was. I answered what I thought was an honest aside question. Never ever proposed nestjs over meteor and have repeatedly declined your attempt to have me do so.
way to change the tone guys
Thanks for the clarification @manthony. Thus, it’s a matter of clearing up the misconceptions, updating the guide, or do you’ve other suggestions?
Including the good third party work on scaling into official status (like in the docs) would be excellent. It was precisely what I was getting at before the FUD of another (allegedly) Vue developer going in on meteor took over.
Yes as a community stop being so defensive and emotional. You never know who you are dealing with on an anonymous forum. You turned off a lot more than just me last night and with this acidc tone a number of you are continuing with this morning.
I think this valid feedback, which I also share. I’m hoping that the community (including yourself) can contribute to making the guide better to clear those misconceptions.
You see, it is exactly this patronising attitude which triggered the replies you keep complaining about. This and the fact that you give advice at such length to some very seasoned users (some of them known long-term contributors), when it becomes clear you have hardly, if ever, even used Meteor.
Closing this topic. It’s run its course.