Meteor scales fine. Mongo is a fantastic tech used by a huge amount of companies. I have no vested interest in sticking with Meteor other than it just works well for our needs. I understand your perspective, but after reading this whole thing, I just see a lot of unneeded aggression. If you want to use something other than Mongo, you can, just not with ddp and pubsub. If that doesn’t work for you, just move on and stop insulting people here. I don’t understand the commitment to keeping up with an internet argument for this long.
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[Mod Note]: This has been mildly edited
Yes the basis of the rep was a fact. Its so much a fact that some good people here addressed it. So I would say present tense that’s not as big an issue BUT in order for me to know that I had to continue to show a deep interest in meteor to know there were workarounds. My point is and was (and hasn’t been touched) that companies and shops want to see such solution as as official or integrated package. i don’t know why such a statement is either controversial or something to get defensive about.
Go back and read what I read. I at no point stated that Meteor cannot scale.
Are you really trying to claim that instant reactivity and subscription doesn’t have a scaling effect? Can you mitigate it? Why yes but to claim the rep wasn’t a rather direct result of the selling point of Meteor but just people’s ignorance is well …a little bit arrogant and uninformed itself.
No the keyword here is one that has not been used yet - fan boyism. We don’t want to hear anything else but all thats right with meter past or present EVEN IN A THREAD titled "why not meteor in 2020?
How dare I show up in such a thread and maintain issues exist that do make some decide not to use
meteor.
I guess it must be such an impossible gargantuan task that all the developers of those kinds of apps all use Meteor. I don’t disgree it s easier to get going on that with meteor. Its also harder to control it too.
Anyway I declined getting into debates about this framework against another and just cited some reasons why shops might not go with meteor. I don;t see any of you having touched any of them (as actually stated) . I’ve been very constructive for a very key reason - I’ve been around awhile and I have NEVER seen a framework in decline restore its place in mindshare by saying - everything is great and theres no good reason why we are not being used more.
A few of you in this thread is what really kill frameworks. You get so darn defensive and passive aggressive at people who are not head over fanboy heels in love you run off everyone else. Then maintainers only hear your point of view and the framework continues to die.
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I don’t think this is very constructive.
The issue here is the shortcomings you are listing, I (and others in the form) have been hearing them for years and they have been debunked many times. And I tried to explain, that yes there is couplings with the DB (but most of us here are happy with it), and for the scaling there are ways to optimize once you hit the scale.
Once you accept and bypass those, I think the Meteor ecosystem has alot to offer relative to the alternatives.
You are not adding new point to the discussion. You mentioned NestJS and I gave you my honest opinion about it, that I would stick to express/webpack if it comes to that. But it is a good framework and will get the job done (I mean it’s express/passport with good patterns).
Again, I wish you a good luck with your choices, this is tech and we have to pick what works best for us and get the job done. I really don’t think I can add anything anymore here, we are going in circles, and I would rather get back to my coding.
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That in itself prove my point. The rationale that the whole world just hasn’t gotten that we really have solved all issues others have raised as well is not in the least bit credible. Meteor though declined is still too widely known to claim everyone else but us has just missed it. I never made any point about what most of you are happy with or not. Its immaterial. It never been about you or other present users or convincing you to use something else. Its not difficult - Its right there in the title
Why not Meteor in 2020? and then the OP asked. Whats wrong with Meteor? lol,
Crikey Mates. So no one was supposed to point out what they considered wrong or they were trying to convince you away from meteor? Get a grip. But you are right nothing new is being added to this topic at this point…Not you and not me.
I criticize aspects of meteor all the time without feeling spited in some way by it or anyone here who may disagree. This community takes critisim just fine. It’s when things are no longer constructive that’s the problem.
OK. I see. This person is just here to argue and provoke. I got no time for people like this. I’m not trying to sell this framework. Use it or don’t.
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Hey @manthony it looks like you’ve been missing out on the joy of Meteor since about 2015 according to your message history, FOMO (fear of missing out) is real. I’ve been using Meteor and loving it since that time, and so have thousands of other developers.
I’m now using Meteor + Vue for 1.5 yrs and I couldn’t be happier. It’s not cool to spread FUD (Fear Uncertainty & Doubt) just as a “lurking outsider” (your words), that has no benefit to anyone. And your lurking FUD behavior could be done to any framework.
I’m working to change this FUD, so I really don’t appreciate your misinformation/FUD. The experience of the developers in this thread is pretty massive, and it sounds like you’ve never even used Meteor. We are working to make it easier for new users to get started with Meteor, so if that is your goal, we could all help out a lot more around that topic.
When you use Meteor vs other stacks, you pretty quickly realize why it is so amazing.
There is no other community I’ve seen that is more supportive than the Meteor Community. It’s also been crazy resilient over the years.
It looks like you’ve been “lurking” in the Meteor community and raised your concerns about Meteor in 2017, 2018, and now. I’m in the Vue Land Discord and talk with two core team Vue devs about Meteor + Vue and working to build a stronger connection between the two communities. Vue devs somehow felt burned and there is A LOT of FUD about Meteor in the Vue community and hopefully we’ll get this cleared up in time. One of Vue’s core team devs wrote the primary integration packages for Vue + Meteor and the integration is awesome.
Meteor is a hidden gem 
at this point, and the devs who discover it find a lot of joy in building & maintaining apps. Meteor will continue to grow organically, the best kind of growth, and passionate devs write the packages they need which benefits everyone in the eco-system. You can look at some of my post history if you’d like to see some of my comments to clear up old FUD.
@matthollingsworth this has been the kind of attitude that we would like to clear up in the public 
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@ everyone, lets chill for a second please. This has spilled over from constructive disagreement into frustration and aggression.
@manthony, you don’t need to reply to everyone. Most of your posts have been very constructive, but your frustration in later posts seems to have triggered a frustrated response from others.
The thing is, that others opinions and experiences aren’t an attack on yours.
Their experience with scaling doesn’t invalidate your experience with core functionality and external perceptions.
Unfortunately, perceptions of Meteor is a long standing sore spot for community evangelists, so you got the regular defenses of Meteor in response (ie. be careful with pub/sub, use extra packages, etc).
You don’t need to respond to every one of these, your first response was adequate in explaining that this is the objections you face when considering Meteor with your team. It’s clear in the remaining ones that you are getting further agitated that folks are getting stuck on defending the point. Chill, you don’t need to keep replying.
@ everyone
Lets not make assumptions about each other, and keep it civil. I don’t want to have to delete or edit posts. I’ve done a little of both to clean up instead of responding to the flags. I’m not handing out any silences or suspensions, since this looks like it was miscommunication and misreading instead of malice.
We all know that Meteor has a rough reputation, some deserved and some not. I think some of the improvements suggested have a lot of merit, but we are still going to have that reputation to work on as well.
As a side note, I’ve been interviewing for a new job and so I’ve gotten a few of these:
Which is fun trying to convince others that my skills are still relevant in 2020 
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Thanks @coagmano, much needed 
I really hope I’m not throwing gasoline on the fire here.
I actually think @manthony’s posts, albeit pretty direct, were pretty constructive. He was not insulting anyone, just pointing out (perceived) flaws as is the topic of this post. If you are insulted by this, you should maybe read some of the stoic works. As Epictetus already observed, it’s impossible to insult a rock 
This is a good point in my opinion. The discussion is not (and has never been) “does Meteor scale”, but rather: what can we do to improve this perception. Official guides + packages for the known solutions is a very constructive suggestion.
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Goodness man. You should be on Reddt so I could give you some Gold. Thats EXACTLY The point I made in my very first post in this thread. Its been twisted mercilessly ever since. unofficial packages need to be brought into official status to help convince people they can trust meteor to scale. You’ve single handedly restored my faith in this forum (well almost. I see the merry band is still at it).
@manthony, I for one apologize if any of my comments aggravated you, I get your point about scaling best practices and the DB coupling, it has been echoed many times in the form, and I really don’t want this thread to turn personal.
This is very good feedback.
I’d suggest we turn this thread into something constructive. I’ve always proposed to create a scaling section within the Meteor Guide to encapsulate the best practices.
We can start a thread to collect some of the best practices , and then put them in a doc which might help in clearing some of the FUD around scaling.
However, at risk of repeating myself, the scaling issues you alluded you are solvable, and no these are not hacks but best practices to be followed to address the challenges of scaling any system. The alternative you proposed (nestjs) doesn’t make any comparable offering, and in my perspective, offer very little to plain express/webpack or Meteor. The issue with Meteor real-time is that it is very easy to screw it up, and run into performance issues, that is why I think it should have been opt-in by design and not the default.
@manthony would you mind sharing the link of your dev shop so we can get a better idea on your perspective on the kind of services/app development your shop is creating?
I agree with you that the community can do more to address the FUD around scaling.
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Some of the offending messages have been deleted, others have been edited, since the original discussion. Unless you were following it closely for the past 12 hours, you might have missed parts of it.
The constructive parts of it have been obvious.
But, because of misunderstandings, or maybe it was just the late hour in the specific timezone, @manthony’s posts were becoming more and more in a way that can easily be viewed as patronising and negative. And it all snowballed from members of the forum defending others, not from a defensive of Meteor.
Saying this so it is not assumed that it was just a case of evangelism gone awry.
Edit: meant timezones
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Over the last 5 years Meteor has been scrutinized till death, do you really think this the first time we hear this? I lost count how many threads I responded to personally, within the Meteor forums! Just grab popcorn and click on my profile history. Why? Because they negate my own hands-on positive experience with the tech and I believe it’s great tech for entrepreneurs, I have nothing to sell here, if it doesn’t work for you by all means use something else, it comes with MongoDB and it needs knowledge to scale, you don’t like that, don’t use it, use Firebase or something else, but don’t create FUD for others who know what they are doing. The tech is far from perfect and has many shortcomings, which has been well documented, it has been here for 8 years! but it has also alot to offer when used correctly. There goes no day in these forums without someone complaining about something and that’s fine. My issue personally is when things start to go in circles, and the discussions stop being reasonable or productive.
Why not Meteor in 2020? My personal reason, too much FUD in the forums, I like the Meteor community, I learned alot here, and there alot of smart and very experienced folks here, they are busier than me and don’t comment often and it is always a delight to see their posts. But I don’t want to come to this forum and hear the same FUD messages over and over again. I want to learn about best practices, new tech, new announcement, packages, and share experiences. I find the Meteor forum very moderators accomodating, I would like to see the same scrutiny applied to other JS frameworks and there is plenty to scrutinize out there.
This is my favorite part of the thread so far! It was unexpected, thanks for sharing. I’m a big Epictetus fan as well.
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The Meteor MySQL package has been around since 2015 and fully supports pub/sub and DDP using the MySQL binary log as the event source.
The most recent update was version 1.2.12 released on April 30th 2020 (21 days ago).
Over these years, I have personally known 6 Australian businesses who have relied on this package in their Meteor production apps, 5 of them not even running MongoDB.
Scalability has been at the heart of its implementation and I have even pushed for Meteor’s Mongo package and redis-oplog to be enhanced by incorporating functionality present in the MySQL package.
The Meteor MySQL package has been posted about many times in this forum and it’s frustrating to have to deal with the chronic amnesia I have seen in this thread.
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I am aware of it and share and understand your frustration, I have shared this great package several times myself.
But as you can see, people will complain it’s not official and not in the guide, perhaps we can add it to the guide and put it part of the community packages?
I really think we should have SQL, PWA and Scaling/Performance, Community Packages sections in the Meteor guide, also a section to compare it objectively with other frameworks, so whenever those threads popup we just share a link and save ourselves the headache and time of repeating ourselves.
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Yeah, I was going to respond, but it’s not worth it in this case. There are iron clad assumptions being made that you can’t argue against, and why would you, it wouldn’t be fruitful. Many of us around here work on lots of different platforms, with varying forms of devops, and still like and prefer Meteor. There are reasons for that, but this particular person is not interested, and should probably just use something they are more preferential to.
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We should just get it into the Meteor Guide. Let me know if you want me to do it or anything else.
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Is there a “Meteor misconceptions” post somewhere, authoritatively written?
https://www.meteor.com/meteor-faq turned up
when Googling for those terms, and does answer the DB question, but it could be made more convincing by mentioning what @vlasky said, and there should also be an entry about PWAs .
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oh it was most definitely that. As Rijk has so honestly pointed out there never was a charge about Meteor not scaling. NEVER. That WAS made up by evangelism gone awry. You can delete all the response you want after mullojo’s pretty savage attack on me personally as some deviant “lurker” allowing you pretend it was all my fault but if you don’t learn as a community you are going to tick off a lot of others than the Vue developers you ticked off last night. I don’t see how given the market position of Meteor thats constructive but have fun with it here, You don’t have control of the narrative elsewhere where it counts.
nope never ever made any proposal of Nestjs as an alternative to Meteor. Doing so unsolicited on Meteor forum would have been disrespectful. Thats another charge completely made up due to evangelism gone awry. You asked me an aside about what my go to (the one I use most often or fall back to) node framework was. I answered what I thought was an honest aside question. Never ever proposed nestjs over meteor and have repeatedly declined your attempt to have me do so.
way to change the tone guys
Thanks for the clarification @manthony. Thus, it’s a matter of clearing up the misconceptions, updating the guide, or do you’ve other suggestions?
Including the good third party work on scaling into official status (like in the docs) would be excellent. It was precisely what I was getting at before the FUD of another (allegedly) Vue developer going in on meteor took over.
Yes as a community stop being so defensive and emotional. You never know who you are dealing with on an anonymous forum. You turned off a lot more than just me last night and with this acidc tone a number of you are continuing with this morning.