Where's the vision gone? Where ist the soul gone?


#54

Sure, only that Steve Jobs was the leader and evangelist of Apple. He used emotion to enable. In the case of this post, it starts with a very negative tone. The positive emotion you are talking about is nowhere to be seen in here. The parallel is too far fetched.

It just looks like yet another “o-h my ghaaad, the sky is falling” kind of post.

From my own experience, I can tell you this: Meteor, in the so-called state the prophets of doom like to think it is, has helped us write a 250k LOC SaaS. Soon to be released. It has helped others, such as @ramez build amazing products. Users such as @diaconutheodor have brought in some of the most significant contributions to Meteor in recent years (far more important than established poor practices like MUP/MUPX, which every little guy seems to be crying about these days!), yet every day I wake up to a forum where there is yet another doom and gloom posting.

Someone leaves, someone comes. Things change. If you’re good at what you’re doing, you shouldn’t care much.

Apologies if the wording comes across as too strong, it’s nothing personal.

P.S. Nevertheless, good pep talk


#55

Yes I do, hence fighting back all these pointlessly negative forum posts


#56

I find it interesting, to read, what you write.
And it’s good, that you are happy about, what meteor did in the past. So do i.

You got right. Things change. Someone leaves, someone comes.

So know what you see now, is me, coming and asking these questions.
I do care. Even if i shouldn’t in your eyes.

So i ask myself, what are you fighting against?
I am one of the community who likes to know, what i asked for.

It’s not negative. It’s legitim. At least in my eyes.


#57

I am mostly happy about what we managed to build. With Meteor, I am happy from a crafting perspective - I just love what it lets us do. There is simply nothing that was possible in the past, and that has become impossible now. This is something I don’t get at all.

Top notch reactive framework (see Redis Oplog if you think it’s not scalable), that lets you write isomorphic code, and gives you three solid UI choices. That is a very big thing. Let me emphasize - very big!

Really, what is everybody’s issue now? Why so much wailing left and right on these forums. Very useful posts and announcements get drowned in a teary, salty sea of gloom: “What happens to X now that Y has left”, “Z has moved on from Meteor and has written a Medium post”, “The vision is gone”. Boom! The sky has fallen and it’s all over the floor.

Everyone with a bit of technical skill knows that, even if MDG disappears tomorrow, nothing is lost. You can run your product with Meteor 1.4.3 FOR EVER.

If you want your voice to be heard, you have several options: 1) start using Galaxy, and as an enterprise customer you’ll have direct line to MDG; 2) create a useful package, something that brings in many users to Meteor, and maintain it; 3) overall, bring in constructive ideas

Speaking of legitimate, just out of curiosity, can you point to a contribution that you (or your company) has made to the Meteor community (a package, issues, bug reports, advice to a novice, … anything)? I noticed on these forums that it is mostly non-contributors that complain very often. And it is usually about very ethereal matters.

See, that’s my point.


#58

Thank you for your point.

I find, that it’s grounded and legitim too.

But you see it from a standpoint of a developer, that is in the development industry.

I do it from a standpoint, from the companies, that are needning development. And try to achieve things in a budget with internal developers.

And from my standpoint of view, things like low costs and simplicity and stability and more are very key. And as meteor is going away from that, other questions coming in my mind, than in yours.

So for me, t is really important to know, where it s going.

But even if i am not a classical developer, i am a part of the meteor community because i’m using it. And so i ask the questions, that i ask to get the answers, that i need.

i ask them, because i have them. And it’s really not up to you to judge people, what’s a good question and what’s not. Because you don’t know their needs or backgrounds.

That thread could be much shorter, if someone would take the time to answer my questions instead of moaning, that i shouldn’t have asked this or that. Or to say, that others shouldn’t have asked this or that.

It is my and their right, to ask, what we think we need to know. even when it’s not bringing pleasure in the first place.

So it takes some courage to ask this questions. Because as soon, as there is a little criticism in the air, people like you come and around with their negative words against the, in my eyes legitim questions, instead of ANSWERING them.


#59

My post above is definitely strongly worded, and I hope it doesn’t upset you very much. But, you see, this is mostly a technical forum. From the description:

I’m afraid this is just not the place for business, vision, and strategy related questions. Send a ticket to MDG for that.

It would have been a lot better if, as @sashko pointed out earlier, you framed your question in a technical manner.

I noticed you keep telling people that it is not for them to judge your question. Well, most of us are techies, and also understand Meteor quite well. We DO have the right to judge your non-technical question, and sorry to say, it is absolute rubbish.


#60

Guys. Let’s not feed the trolls, ok? They just come back for more … and more.


#61

No. This is getting emotional, because some startups betted a lot on the future of the uber-cool and super simple Meteor we all loved and now see their efforts flow away in the drains. Sort of.


#62

As you can read further down from the post that you just quoted, we made this bet too. With an enterprise-level SaaS. And I am happy we did. No matter what MDG does, we will always have the technical ability to change/maintain our own code.


#63

If I was starting a new app tomorrow, I’d still bet on Meteor. What’s more, I’d still use Blaze, globals, pub-sub, tracker, package-based architecture – all that bad sh*t (well … maybe not Session) – because it still all works just fine with 1.4.2.3 and I know I can build something pretty awesome in a fraction of the time I could with any other stack.

If things stop working with 1.5, so what? (Not that that’s likely, given Meteor’s amazing track record with back-compat.) It’s already got everything I need and more. The only missing piece for me was cheap and easy scalability and, with the advent of redis-oplog, that may be the last real barrier removed from starting any project with the old school Meteor I know and love.

Then again, I’m not the target market. I’m the one-man-shop, evenings and weekends coder. If I had a team working on a project, I might be bothered to learn React, modules (and ES6 in general), Apollo, etc.


#64

Unfortunately you are so wrong. I realky do try to get help with something and i propose changes. That means, i fullfill at least 2 of these Points.

But People like you always think to have the right to judge others. So i now not gonna fight anymore on this point.

In my eyes, you don’t have any right to do so and that’s enough for me.

I like to focus on the questions. But thanks anyway for your input.


#65

The way I see it, is a lot of users around these days are using Meteor in production or at their business, etc.

In this case, a lot of us just kind of want some… reassurance? We don’t really know what’s going on, and there have been warning signs (being told things are going to change, these things are just temporary, certain aspects are going to be deprecated, and so on). We heard a few times “we should be happy in the end”… but we have no idea of current status, or progress, or what the plans are for 3 months from now, 6 months from now, a year from now, etc.

The key here would be communication. Which we have also been told would be improving moving forward. But has it, really? No… not really. Which then makes it a trust issue.

That’s usually not the dealbreaker with development software, that’s usually once things such as security vulnerabilities are found. At that point, it’s not a “so what?” anymore. It means your live app in production is vulnerable.

I obviously still have faith in Meteor since I am still developing in it. I just wish it actually showed that MDG cared about those of us in my situation - who supported Meteor for a long time, pushed to get it in to business, and now are not really benefiting from the last 6 months of updates, and worried about functionality of our apps in the future and/or security patches.

I would be completely fine sticking to this version of Meteor, assuming any major vulnerabilities would be addressed… Without that, it can be said “noone is forcing you to upgrade”… but if vulnerabilities will not be patched up, we ARE being forced to upgrade, or lose our app.


#66

I think the biggest problem is that we have been communicating a lot but haven’t done a good job of doing it in a focused and productive way. It’s becoming pretty clear that individually responding to a lot of forum threads isn’t really that helpful at improving the state of communication.

I bet your app is much faster both in production and at build time in 1.4.2 - and that’s been the main set of updates in the last 6 months. So what updates are you referring to?


#67

I can agree with this. Forum posts do help a bit, but they get drowned out. Also, things change, and forum’s cant really confirm if anything changed or not.

Without an official announcement, it’s hard to take things too seriously.

Thing is, as a user of Meteor at my business, with our business app deployed on Galaxy, I’m pretty sure that MDG is aware of the cause for concern. It would really go a very long way if an official announcement were to mention that our concerns are recognized and there’s a plan of action to support us.

Without that, it feels that although we’re supporting Meteor and we’re in it for the long haul (with live applications), we’re not really valued long-term.

Yep that’s probably true about the speed. We have plans to upgrade Meteor version in the future, but some more high priority updates first.

Regarding my comment about last 6 months of updates, I was mostly referring post 1.4. With development being moved to Apollo. MDG announced the future Meteor updates will be integrating Apollo in to Meteor, and then moving over the NPM completely. So to be honest - the future updates are a very scary situation.

We don’t know how Apollo is going to change Meteor, and pub/sub is usually fairly condensed code, so if all we have to change is that it should be reasonable. But then with that combined with moving over to NPM, and not a clear plan on how Atmosphere is going to be handled, or if it’s just going to be completely deprecated, or if there’s going to be any way to more easily repackage our Atmosphere packages as NPM, or if Atmosphere packages will even work with Apollo… it’s again very scary to think about.

As mentioned in earlier posts, I would be fine staying on an older version of Meteor - but the big concern is major vulnerabilities or security updates. That would completely ruin any possibilities of sticking to an older version.

We’re supporting you guys and want only the best for Meteor, we just hope we’re not forgotten in this transition Meteor is going through…


#68

Case in point:

I think the conversation/comments surrounding the workload at MDG is another good example of a lack of communication negatively impacting the community. It’s probably dozens of times now I’ve heard “Ben is the only one working on Meteor” in posts, podcasts, etc. – without a public-facing response from MDG.

I think that many of the devs here who have been with Meteor since <1.0 realize that it’s a product that is beginning to reach stability, make better use of community contributions, etc. but the forums aren’t a place to address that type of concern, in my opinion. Just as these forums aren’t really the right spot to maintain the Apollo conversations – Meteor-Apollo integrations, sure, but Apollo !== Meteor, and I can’t help but think that there is something missing here in the separation of concerns, for lack of a better phrase.

As always, :heart: Meteor and MDG and want to see the best for the products, team and end users.


#69

On the other hand, I wrote an app 2 years ago in Meteor 1.1, Blaze, Tracker, etc. (then upgraded to 1.2 mid stream - without too much trouble even). This year, I dusted it off, ran all the updates and it took like maybe 2 horus to get everything up and running on 1.4.

From what I can tell, Blaze, Tracker, Mongo, etc. will all be supported going forward, they just aren’t treated like a single product anymore. But I can’t see why that’s a problem. It all still works very well.

The only problems I’ve had with Meteor are more micro - like when they updated LESS a few versions back, and it broke like half the packages I was using (most of which just needed a minor update). But that kind of thing happens on any significantly useful platform.


#71

Yeah, but we’ve been told that the backwards compatibility is likely only temporary. This is a lot of the reason I have worried. Some have said backward compatibility is not going anywhere though? No idea really, not sure what the MDG team is up to.

That’s the primary concern.

I also just want to see Meteor do as well as it has in the past. Ironically, since Meteor tried to address the major concerns with the platform, we have hit a bit of a decline. You would think the opposite would happen. But reality states otherwise.

I personally feel that’s because Meteor’s improvements have been focused on trying to make “Users who do not already use Meteor potential new users”. But I believe the traction was lost on current users of Meteor. We became worried and unsure of direction, and that shows in the morale of the community, hence that actually lessened the amount of new users coming in.

Of course there’s also the concerns of “If everything changes, it isn’t really Meteor anymore, is it? Why not just use React straight up?”. That’s another concern I think should be addressed publicly by MDG.

Also, I believe the feedback kind of got MDG off track on what needs to change. They heard the main complaints and tried to address them, but at that time, Meteor was still growing very rapidly. This is before Apollo, before NPM functionality. At this time, non-Meteor users of course would say they want things like SQL and NPM. But people currently using Meteor at that time were more looking for improvements to what they already have in their projects. Once they see all the updates not only don’t address any of the issues current Meteor users were having (such as scalability) and instead focusing on things they don’t need or won’t be using, but on top of that, adding these things may make Meteor much more verbose, require huge gigantic refactors in order to make their projects work, and potentially lose many of the time-saving features Meteor has… I believe this did more to damage Meteor than it did to actually improve/bring more users to Meteor.

I don’t know, I just think proper understanding of the concerns of Meteor developers, followed by communication to users as to why we don’t have to be worried about these things, and a very clear description of what is going to happen in the future, would go a very long way in giving Meteor some traction again.

I mean, we all know what the roadmap says. But what about all the things we will need to rework when Meteor goes to NPM? Is backwards compatibility really going to be temporary or is it going to be permanent now? Is there going to be any features to help us refactor for the updated versions? How much of our code won’t work? What’s going to happen to Atmosphere? Will there be a way to easily convert Atmosphere packages to NPM?

Those are just some of the questions that, if answered, would make Meteor developers much, much more comfortable. And if the answers are positive, rather than negative, it would bring the morale back to where it should be.

But here’s the thing - if they are quiet about it, that implies that the answers are not positive and will most likely be negative. If they could quell the unrest with a simple statement they probably would. But being quiet? That means that most likely they don’t want to drive people away until they have something “new” to show them to try to keep them happy.

That’s not really a situation any current Meteor developer wants to be in. It’s harmful to businesses that are already using Meteor. It would ruin trust of developers to MDG, and make developers feel like they have been abandoned. Many already do suspect they have been abandoned, and you can see the unrest in the community. But it’s never been confirmed. If it becomes actually confirmed, many developers would just leave the platform. This would make it even harder to grow in the future.

I just hope MDG is aware of this and actually takes it in to consideration, and hope they do something to address the unrest and worry in the community.


#72

The funny thing is, like I said in another thread - everything added or changed in Meteor since the beginning of this year at least has been in direct response to feedback from current production users.

I think we’re in a case where some part of the community feels like they haven’t been listened to, and assumes that’s because MDG doesn’t listen to anybody at all. From our perspective, the situation is more that the Meteor framework is evolving in the direction that we hear people asking for the most, especially people who are heavily invested in production Meteor projects. This is aligned with what we hear from calls with Galaxy customers, surveys we’ve done, and more.

If you look at my forum history I’ve been working on this for at least 30 min a day for almost the last 1.5 years. I think it’s becoming clear to me that this approach, including a regular transmission podcast, constant forum responses, and everything else I’ve tried to do isn’t working well at all. Perhaps I need some radically new idea.


#73

Firstly, @sashko your positive can-do attitude is amazing. Thanks!

Case in point, I proposed to @thea a while back we write a blog post on Meteor’s blog / Medium about our experience, as well as have @diaconutheodor do the same about redis oplog and his other projects - I shared his email with @thea. There are a couple of other key things happening like Vue and code splitting where we can bring in more people too. Then we can solicit more involvement from other members of the community (already have a short list which will grow very fast as we advance).

I even floated the idea of joining on behalf of our organization to the next meet up in SF. To be discussed

We are waiting … let’s keep the ball rolling.


#74

I can understand that perspective. Only issue is that, at the moment, morale is quite low and growth seems to have stalled - as this and other topics have noted, traction seems to have been lost.

So I would say, taking this under consideration, it’s more likely that some part of this community is happy with the upcoming changes, but the majority is likely unhappy with the direction. Things like Galaxy customers or surveys may give inaccurate results based on the demographic of the users being surveyed.

I love using Meteor at my job, and we plan on active development for at the minimum one more year, and this is software that will end up eventually being used by multiple other retail businesses that we are distributors for. I’m the IT manager and lead developer here, and I’m the one who pushed for us to use Meteor as our primary platform, so I’m pretty invested in to Meteor, and really hope for only the best success of the platform.

All I can say is from my perspective, it’s mostly just “worry about the unknown” and “hoping that these worries are unfounded”. I don’t really need SQL, but I think it’s awesome if Meteor supported it. I don’t really need Meteor to be fully NPM based, but I think it would be awesome to support. But I am worried about what sacrifices will be made in order to make that a reality… and I just hope it is fair to current developers (as mentioned, it’s kind of a vibe in the air that Meteor developers have been abandoned, but are hoping it’s not true).

Oh I don’t need to check your history, I seen you on here all the time (I usually check the forums here daily at work) and have seen or had you respond to my posts in the past.

But as evidenced by the responses a few posts up, just posting things on the forum are hard to miss. I had never seen the quote of yours that vigor shared.

Regarding that, I’ve seen many different conflicting points on the forum as well. The aforementioned backwards compatibility introduced in 1.3 - we were told that was temporary, some MDG staff had then said it isn’t going anywhere, but then it has been implied that it’s not permanent, and we have been told that it’s going to be required to even make full NPM support work… I have no idea what the truth is. And if it’s only in a forum post, it’s not really a solid piece of information.

My best suggestion for this would be, why not do public announcements/articles about these issues that are brought up regularly, and sticky those up top? Those have proven effective at not only reaching users, but generating a huge amount of feedback. I mean, think back to a year ago with the React announcements. Those reached everyone and were discussed for months. And even during this last summer, you would occasionally see some users thinking that the React-centric plan was still happening.

Assuming this happened, it would be very easy to respond whenever these topics are raised. If someone is worried Meteor is getting abandoned? Just link them to the announcement. Someone worried about backwards compatibility, or scaling, or the direction of Meteor? Just link them.

I just think at this point, it might be the time that it’s more important to address the “morale” of Meteor users, rather than focusing only on developing Meteor from a software perspective. Kind of sad that the last year has had such a decline of morale.

(Just seen Ramez’s post appear right beofre I posted mine, and I agree that blogs would be great as well. Just a solid place that people can not only see the information, but also allowing users to just link to that place whenever questions come up.

And I would like to add for my Christmas wish list, that I completely love the Blaze 2.0 idea of Vue and hope that happens someday, and in an ideal world, wish that MDG would assist in making it a reality as a first-class citizen, rather than leaving it up to the communtiy! :gift:).